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Welcome to Out of Order – a German Marshall Fund podcast discussing how our world was, is, and will be ordered. How do we save democracy, reason, rule of law and global cooperation? And why do some people not want to? Much-maligned experts try to come up with answers, at outoforder.gmfus.org/ and here.

Co-hosted by a German in America and an American in Germany the Out of Order podcast brings together different international experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

May 24, 2018

We are back! After an extended spring break, the Out of Order crew is back in the studio to bring you informative and relevant speakers and ideas, exploring how the world was, is and will be ordered. In this episode, we discuss whether the West is a club built on common values or shared interests. Specifically, we look at the case of NATO and Turkey and consider both how democratic backsliding affects and should affect their relationship. NATO’s founding treaty refers includes a statement of common values in its preamble, mentioning the “freedom, common heritage, and civilization of their peoples” and that it is “founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty, and rule of law.” But how important have these common principles really been for NATO? Is it really a democratic, liberal organization, or is it simply a security alliance against the (then) Soviet Union and today Russia? We discuss the current political situation in Turkey, the prospects for reform and NATO’s proper role in pushing against anti-democratic developments. We also discuss the nature of NATO as an alliance and its history of accepting less-than-democratic members. Co-host Rachel Tausendfreund was joined for the episode by Özgür Unluhisarcikli, Director of GMF’s Ankara office and Jan Techau, the Director of GMF’s Europe program out of the Berlin office. Thinks and Tanks: Özgür’s think: Competitive Authoritarianism: Hybrid Regimes after the Cold War (2010) by Steven Levitsky and Lucan A. Way. Link: http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/politics-international-relations/comparative-politics/competitive-authoritarianism-hybrid-regimes-after-cold-war?format=HB&isbn=9780521882521#h0IMKjHeGwJdRV53.97 Jan’s think: The Impossible Presidency: The Rise and Fall of America's Highest Office (2017) by Jeremi Suri and “How the Presidency became Impossible” by John Dickerson in The Atlantic Link: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/05/a-broken-office/556883/ Rachel’s think: the May/June issue of the Berlin Policy Journal “And Yet it Moves." Specifically the interview with former German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble Link: https://berlinpolicyjournal.com/i-strongly-advise-against-arrogance/