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Welcome to Out of Order – a German Marshall Fund podcast discussing how our world was, is, and will be ordered. How do we save democracy, reason, rule of law and global cooperation? And why do some people not want to? Much-maligned experts try to come up with answers, at and here.

Co-hosted by a German in America and an American in Germany the Out of Order podcast brings together different international experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Mar 1, 2019

The controversy over Chinese telecoms giant Huawei and the potential for it to unlock an unprecedented level of access to Europe’s critical infrastructure through 5G has been at the center of headlines around the world. But how does Huawei’s 5G plan actually work, and why does it have policymakers and technologists on both sides of the Atlantic so concerned?

Out of Order’s newest host and deputy director of GMF’s Asia program, Sharon Stirling, is joined by two experts on China-US-Europe relations, Janka Oertel and Jonas Parello Plesner to get to the bottom of the Huawei debate, how it's playing out between the US and Europe (and within Europe), and what to watch for as the situation rapidly changes.