Preview Mode Links will not work in preview mode

Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Sep 13, 2019

John Bolton, President Trump’s 3rd National Security Adviser, has made his exit. With change afoot (or maybe not) two of the most well-positioned voices on all things NSC—John Gans and Derek Chollet-- are at the Out of Order table to discuss what went wrong for Bolton, how the national security process has been broken under the Trump administration, and what could come next for a yet-to-be-named successor.

John Gans is the author of White House Warriors, a new book on the National Security Council, current director of communications at the University of Pennsylvania's Perry World House global policy center, and a GMF Fellow. Among other roles, he served as Chief Speechwriter for Defense Secretary Ash Carter. Derek Chollet is the German Marshall Fund’s Executive Vice President. His previous roles include Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs and Senior Director for Strategic Planning on the National Security Council staff under President Obama.


Derek Chollet


John Gans -

Show Notes:

White House Warriors: How the National Security Council Transformed the American Way of War”

How John Bolton Broke the National Security Council (New York Times)

John Bolton Will Not End Well (Defense One)