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Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Nov 16, 2019

In the information wars, controlling the narrative is key. From Hong Kong to 5G to US politics, the Russian government has made no illusions about its willingness to bend reality to get what it wants. What is that narrative and is it really making an impact?  And why does a professional disinformation tracker think that the overt information – news spread to the world from state-run outlets like Sputnik and RT—can tell us far more than the covert bots and trolls that became so infamous in 2016?


This week on Out of Order, Bret Schafer, a disinformation expert with GMF’s Alliance for Securing Democracy discusses his new project tracking Russian global narratives and where the Kremlin is succeeding, how the disinformation landscape is changing, and what it matters.