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Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Apr 30, 2020

Though this pandemic is first and foremost a health battle, the experience has also surfaced ideological clashes: autocracy vs. democracy; globalization vs. nationalism; left vs. right; interconnectedness vs. isolation. With Germany at the center of many of these big debates, prominent German parliamentarian Cem Özdemir—member of the Green political party-- joins GMF’s Derek Chollet to talk about the geopolitics of coronavirus and the view from Europe’s biggest economy.

Özdemir, who recovered from the virus himself, discusses Europe’s “Corona Bonds” debate and the various forces pushing-and-pulling how Europe manages its own economic recovery. Among other topics, the conversation covers the threat of authoritarianism in this crisis and the case for liberalism to prevail. Plus: the critical questions about what the virus has exposed about interconnected societies—and what comes next.