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Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Jul 16, 2020

When the pandemic spread to Europe, NATO was met with a unique challenge: it needed to assist with crisis response while also keeping its ever-important deterrence mission intact on its Eastern Flank.  On this week’s episode of “Post-Pandemic Order,” Derek Chollet talks with a key leader in this effort, Estonian Minister of Defense Jüri Luik, about how NATO’s mission evolved (and what stayed the same) throughout the pandemic—and what he learned about the military’s role during this unforeseen public health crisis.

Minister Luik also discusses the resurgence of great power competition and how to balance the new challenges posed by China and with the continuing ones posed by Estonia’s neighbor, Russia. The conversation also covers the state of European defense spending – a much contested topic in the transatlantic relationship-- and why military spending should not become another victim of the pandemic, despite a bleak economic forecast.