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Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Mar 5, 2020

President Macron’s observations about NATO’s “brain death” jolted Europe, eliciting a spectrum of reactions across the continent-- from ambivalence to annoyance to hysteria. Four months after, now that the dust has settled, what did Macron’s NATO comments reveal about Europe’s own cohesion on defense and where do things stand between France and its neighbors?

Picking up on one of Out of Order’s ongoing conversations, this week’s episode brings perspectives from Germany, France, and Poland around the table for a debate on what the NATO dust-up says about Europe’s diverging strategic cultures, and how the strategy may (or may not) change for the alliance itself.

In this week’s episode, GMF Paris deputy director Martin Quencez, GMF’s Europe program director Jan Techau, and Michal Baranowski, GMF’s Warsaw director join host Rachel Tausendfreund this week from Berlin.