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Out of Order is a German Marshall Fund podcast about how our world was, is, and will be ordered. The Out of Order podcast brings together experts from the German Marshall Fund of the United States and beyond to talk about politics, economics, technology and everything else that might help us understand our disordered world.

Feb 5, 2019

A month into 2019, the fight over immigration policy is without resolution as the White House battles with Democrats over funding for a wall on the southern border.

The President is set to deliver his State of the Union address to a divided chamber—and nation. Immigration is expected to feature prominently as prospects of another government shutdown loom. 

New York Times White House correspondent Michael Shear joins Out of Order’s Peter Sparding for a timely conversation about immigration politics and how it all got to this point—from the origins of Trump’s fixation on building a wall, to the many characters driving the debate, and where the actual policy stands.